EP 304 The Power of an Integrative Care Approach to Women's Health Dispelling Fertility Myths | Dr. Laurena White

The Wholesome Fertility Podcast

On today’s episode, Dr. Laurena White and Michelle discuss the importance of preparing the body for pregnancy, especially for women who have irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. Dr. White emphasizes the need for a holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine. She shares stories of women who were told they had premature ovarian failure but were able to conceive naturally with the right support. Dr. White also discusses the misconception of a 'geriatric pregnancy' at age 35 and the importance of making lifestyle changes to create a healthy environment for conception. Episode Takeaways:

• Integrative care and a holistic approach to healthcare are essential for providing comprehensive and effective treatment.
• Unexplained infertility requires thorough examinations and consideration of both male and female factors.
• Birth control can have long-lasting effects on the body and may require time for restoration before attempting to conceive.
• Preconception care is crucial for optimizing fertility and should include lifestyle changes and seeking the right practitioners.
• Finding the right practitioner who listens and takes a personalized approach is key to a successful fertility journey.
• Preparing the body for pregnancy is crucial, especially for women with irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues.
• A holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine can be beneficial in optimizing fertility.
• Making lifestyle changes, such as improving sleep, nutrition, and stress management, can create a healthy environment for conception.

Guest Bio:

• Dr. White is obsessed with health, wellness, and most importantly...healing. In 2018, when she embarked on an entrepreneurial journey and centered her firm around an integrative womanist ethic of care, she had a vision that bonafide healing of chronic, complex health conditions ought to be more attainable, inclusive, and (yes)enjoyable. Within a few years of launch, she had grown a profitable, bootstrapped firm with a full-time team of one to a 15-person team in two additional locations in the Washington, DC metro area.

• With over 20 years of service and experience in the field of women's health ranging from labor support doula to obstetrics/gynecology and reproductive endocrinology/infertility including acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, she is a positive disruptor. As the Chief Operations Officer of The Eudaimonia Center, an integrative reproductive medicine and women’s health firm, she leads a team that facilitates the health, wellness, and healing of complex women’s health challenges including but not limited to uterine fibroids, endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and fertility challenges without the use of unnecessary pharmaceutical drugs (including synthetic hormones and painkillers) and fruitlessly invasive surgical interventions. In a country whose healthcare system falls woefully short of addressing the comprehensive needs of “the least of these”, namely Black women and their children, she aims to revolutionize the industry one healing experience at a time by being fertile ground in a barren land.

• While building a firm may have looked effortless from the outside, starting a business with no resources or funding quickly forced her to realize that early-stage entrepreneurship was anything but transparent. She began documenting her experiences and learnings while focusing on helping more women learn about integrative health, the womanist ethic of care, and the true meaning of healing. She has reimagined what comprehensive women’s healthcare could and should be. As a result, she integrated her firm by forming a synergistic flow between conventional medicine and traditional medicine modalities, so the care women receive is not only transformative, but it’s also restorative.

• Social media
• Facebook - The Eudaimonia Center
• Instagram - @theeudaimoniacenter
• LinkedIn - Laurena White, MD, MPH, DiplAc
• Twitter - @eu_daimonism
• Website link - https://laurenawhite.com/
• Podcast: https://womenshealthwisdomandwine.buzzsprout.com/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript: Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast, Dr. White. I'm so excited to have you today. Laurena White (00:03) Thank you so much, Michelle. glad to be Michelle (00:06) So Lorena and I spoke on her podcast. She had me on her podcast, Women's Health, Wisdom and Wine. She loves wine and I do too. And she actually just came back from Paris. So I'm sure you've had some good wine there. And Lorena, if I may call you Lorena, Dr. Lorena, I feel like you're a friend, so I'm calling you Lorena. Yeah, so she's incredible. She has such an incredible story. when Laurena White (00:20) Definitely. Of course, yes. Yes, we're colleagues, yes. Michelle (00:34) talked to her, met her the first time. I actually, before even meeting her, I took her class on fibroids and it was such a great class and I remember recognizing her and your story is so amazing. And I would love for you to share your story because I think it's fascinating. What I love about your story specifically is first of all, you've been to Cuba, which is freaking awesome. But then also the fact that you have Laurena White (00:56) Yes. Michelle (01:00) like a foot in both worlds of Western and Eastern medicine and really integrate those two. And also what I love about you is that have a different approach. You really look at people as a whole and really spend time to get to know them and listen to them. It's just, I if I can clone you, like, it would be awesome. Laurena White (01:04) Yes. Trust me, I'm working on it. I am trying to clothe myself because I really do feel like how we practice and how our firm works is how I feel and this isn't with no hubris, but how medicine should be. And I honestly believe that we are better together. And so often it's us versus them. And that's not just in medicine, but it's almost in everything. There's just these power dynamics that are not serving. Michelle (01:31) Yes. Laurena White (01:46) the people or the population that we desire to serve, they're trying to serve others' egos. And that's one of the things that frustrate me. That's why I integrated our firm, because I truly do believe in an integrative approach to care. And we have added a womanist ethic of care to that component that takes it even a notch further. And so the original question was kind of telling how I got started or how I got from there to here. Michelle (01:51) Mm You have to tell your story because it's so cool. Laurena White (02:12) I'm gonna try to summarize it as quickly as possible. I always knew I wanted to be a physician. I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. But once I got to my Peds rotation, I realized I love the children, but I could not stand their parents. And that wasn't going to end up with a good career for anybody nor happy families. And I didn't think I was interested in... women's health from the OB -GYN perspective, just because I thought who wants to look at vaginas all day? Like that's just not seemed like something that I wanted to do. However, when I got to that rotation, I started with OB and life changed. Literally my life changed because from even before I helped deliver a baby, it was about, I had been exposed to women's health. had been involved with women's circles in my own family. through vaginal steaming, I had been a doula, labor support doula, so I had been around that aspect, but I realized there's so much more to conception and childbirth, and that 10 months in between, there's so many things that can go wrong, and we don't even talk about those aspects. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, I realized that the word miracle is exactly what that is, because we only see those perfect endings. when we're on the outside, don't see the everything that goes on in between and what a lot of moms have to go through, not just to get pregnant, but to stay pregnant. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, it brought tears to my eyes. And I started wearing goggles because my colleagues are like, you cry at every birth, suck it up. And I was like, and I, you know, I tried, I was like, why do I do this? I was like, why do I cry every time? Michelle (03:52) I'd be the same. Laurena White (03:56) But it's, mean, I'm a softy, I'm in love with love, and I think that, you know, mother -child relationship, you know, it's it's overpowering, it's overwhelming in terms of how intensely bonded that can be when it's healthy and when that whole process just unfolds right in front of your eyes from the time someone, you know, tells you, hey, I'm pregnant, or I think I'm pregnant, to the time, like, you're literally holding that baby in your hands, presenting them to their parent. So it was amazing. And so by the time I got to my Gain rotation, I also realized, hey, this is so much deeper than I thought it would be. It's about education. It's about empowerment. It's about making sure people know their body parts. And not just with 12 and 13 year olds, but also with 41 and 42 year olds who have had children and still don't know where babies come from. And so I was like, I can be an educator as well through this process. And it that was also empowering for me because I knew there was still work to be done. So in between those things, I worked for a federally qualified health center, loved my job, but it was burning me out. I was a sister, a friend, a transportation, a social worker, interpreter. The good thing that I do speak more than one language, so that helped. But it was just a lot for what was supposed to be a basically checkup appointment or an annual visit or. you know, something like that, and it turned into a lot of other things. And when you're helping the indigent and the English as a second or fourth language, and those who just are either immigrants or underhoused or unhoused, I mean, it's just, it was just a lot. And as much as I, my personality doesn't have a switch off valve to say, okay, this is outside your lane. it sees a person who needs help and it's like, okay, you're the one here and they're asking for you and they're sitting in front of you now. So do something. But I was quickly getting burnt out because there was just so much every single day that I was getting home just exhausted. Happy that I was able to do the things that I was able to do, but still just really, really exhausted and burnt out because there wasn't enough time for me, my family, or the other things, aspects of my life that were also important. And After that, I was like, I also wanted to get out of Pennsylvania. And so I wound up working for the Surgeon General during the Obama administration. I was a women's health consultant there and one of the sweetest jobs I've ever had in life. That was after though, I came back from Cuba. I lived in Cuba for six years. And then I lived in Haiti for two years. And that's where I realized what kind of physician I wanted to be. So Cuba and Haiti back to Pennsylvania, then DC and... When the administration changed, everything for me changed. I knew I could no longer stay in working in that administration the way that I had been. My job was not secure. Things were changing at a pace that wasn't healthy for me, wasn't healthy for my position, it wasn't healthy for my reputation. And so I realized, hey, it's either gonna, you're gonna either go back and get an MBA or you're going to open up your own firm and figure it out. Going back to school, I'm a nerd and I love studying. I love all those things. So going back to school was not even a big deal for me. I had already gone back to school to become an acupuncture. So going back to school again to get an MBA was just par for the course for me. But I realized I wanted to do this and I knew knew how to take care of my clients, my patients. So I was gonna start there. And that's what I did in 2018. We opened up our own firm. I opened up my firm started with me and three other part -time people and practitioners, and now we're up to 15, plus myself, and we have two locations, working on our third. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind. It's been, it's like all these good things. It didn't necessarily start off that way. Like the first three months when I opened the door, I was like, where are all the people? They say you build it and they'll come. And that is not how it works. Michelle (07:39) It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Laurena White (07:57) You build it and you spend a lot of time looking at the window wondering is the electricity, know, is the phone jack working? You pick it up. Okay, there is a dial tone. So the phone does work The doors bolted shut like what is going on and It just is one of those things like you know building something from the ground up is just not the what you see in the movies There's a lot of heartbreak. There's a lot of other kind of stuff that goes into that but it never has been not rewarding and it definitely built my character in ways that I didn't know I needed building. Patience is not one of my virtues, and so that definitely showed me, know, dig deeper and harder and into making the thing that I wanted to see come to fruition fully become what it is now. And it's growing. Michelle (08:41) Awesome. And also, I mean, really based on your background, I imagine there's not a lot of places like yours. Laurena White (08:48) that I know of. When we started, one of my mentors was in California and she was shutting down her, shuttering her whole office because she's like, it's too much work, know, between trying to do all the integrative aspects of things and then insurance. And it was wild. And so just when I was opening up, we had been talking for maybe three or four months and she's like, I can't do this anymore because it's just too much work. And I was thinking, know, in California where everything is so progressive and everybody is, what I feel is already advanced and she's having issues. What is that going to mean for me? But I realized I believed in what we do, the work we do, how we do it, our approach. And I bet on myself and I still continue betting on myself because I don't believe that we're, you we got this far just for it to be a flop or a failure. I believe we're steadily growing and people are steady realizing that there are other options. Even if it's not us, there's something else out there. And I think part of that is realizing that it doesn't have, you don't have to be stuck in the same Western medicine system, not being valued, not being seen, not being heard. And with us, you've seen, and valued. And I think everyone deserves that. And as people are starting to realize that they're becoming empowered and whether they choose to work with us or somebody else, they're realizing that they have other decisions that they can make and they don't have to be stuck in a rut. with providers and practitioners that aren't taking care of Michelle (10:12) I think that's huge because I think most people don't really think that they have an option or they just think they don't even know that anything else exists. so talk about that. Like what's the ideal way a patient should feel like when they come in, like what are the things that should be looked at? Cause I, from what I hear a lot is that people want to get like certain worked on or more blood worked on, say, you know, their TSH is off and they want to do a full thyroid, there's a lot of pushback from their doctors or, you don't need that. this is fine. And then sometimes even other intuition, they're like, no, I feel like I need something. And then later on, they find out that intuition was right. They had like a hunch and you know, that's it's a real thing intuition, you know, so, so talk to, because I want people hearing this. Laurena White (10:46) Mm Yeah. Right. Yeah. Michelle (11:05) that are really on the journey, they're going through all of this. I want them to know like what they can have, what should be the quality of care that they should be receiving. Laurena White (11:05) huh. Absolutely. And I think that you hit the nail on the head is that, especially as women, we have that thing, whether you call it intuition or a feeling or whatever you want to call it, it's there. And a lot of times we ignore it because it doesn't fall in the parameters of what everyone else is saying or what the doctor told you or what your friends tell you or something else. But you're constantly being told, no, you're normal or you're fine or it's something else other than something that you know. Michelle (11:44) It's like a dismissal. Yeah. Laurena White (11:45) It'd be off. Yes, complete, yes, that's the word, dismissal. And that's where the womanist ethic of care comes into place, is that when you tell us there's something off and I can't pinpoint it based on my diagnostic skills, which I do take pride in, then it's like, okay, then let's figure it out together. What have you tried? What works? What doesn't work? I'm not one for just running a bunch of tests either, just for the sake of running tests, but I also realized that with blood work, physicians primarily get reimbursed on the basic blood work. There are other blood work that is so expensive that is not covered by insurance and it's out of pocket. So they don't run those because they're not going to get reimbursed. Or they're looking at normal ranges. If it's between this and this, it's falling in the normal range, but they're not looking at ratios. And so you're getting your blood work panel back and it says everything's in the normal range, but some of those ranges are not in the normal ratio. So when you're just looking at numbers and everything says normal and they're just saying, okay, everything's normal, but the ratios are off, that's an explanation for potentially some of the conditions or the symptoms that one is experiencing. But also are they even running the right tests? And if they're not running the right tests or the correct tests in order to make the accurate diagnosis, they're going to continue telling you that there's nothing wrong. Everything's fine to the point of even hinting that it's in your head or you're making it up, which is also one of the things that really annoy me because when someone is telling you there's something wrong and it's not the first time and it's not the complaining Janeys, but someone who does the things and they, and you can see that they've been at this for years, months. Now's the time for me to listen because there's something that's clearly not being addressed. Michelle (13:09) Mm Laurena White (13:33) And that's again where the womanist ethic of care comes into place because if I don't have the answer, we're gonna seek and find it together. I do believe I'm a solution finder. I don't call myself a problem solver because who wants to chase problems? I don't. I wanna find solutions. Yes. Yeah. I mean, who wants to, you run away from problems. You don't run to them, but you run to solutions. And so when we're working together, talking about your symptoms, really asking the questions that we learned. Michelle (13:42) Love that. I love that though. Solution Finder. That's awesome. Yes. Laurena White (14:02) in acupuncture school that we never ask in Western medicine. We're talking about your sleep, your diet, when you eat, how you eat, your bowel movements, your urinary habits, your sleep, whether you dream, are you how to call all these idiosyncratic questions that are never asked in Western medicine, but they're more comprehensive because if you have trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep mean two completely different things. And when we just ask, Michelle (14:30) Mm -hmm. Right. Laurena White (14:31) How are your periods? And someone says, okay. Okay, regular, good, mean absolutely nothing to me because it tells me nothing about you. When I ask you how are you sleeping and you're saying, fine, I don't know what time you go to bed. I don't know what time you wake up. I don't know if you wake up three times in the middle of the night. I don't know if you're having hot sweats in the middle of the night. Are you dreaming? Are your dreams vivid? How many times are this happening per night? Some people think that if they're dreaming, it's a good thing. But when you're dreaming and you remember your dreams, you might as well be awake. So you're not waking up well rested because your mind is still going. Your mind is still engaged, just like where my mind is engaged right now as I talk to you. So if you're remembering your dreams every single night and they're vivid, you're not well rested. But some people have been thinking, I have a dream every night or I have these very wild dreams. And they're thinking it's something that's a yes, yeah. And it's like, whoa, no, those vivid dreams are actually keeping you from getting a well night. Michelle (15:20) Right, this is all Chinese medicine, yeah. Laurena White (15:27) Well rested night sleep and yes, we all dream but for the most part You don't remember them and that means you've been in deep sleep and getting that well rested restorative sleep So they're just nuanced things like that that I find that we do differently and really help us be able to get to the healing aspect of things instead of the symptom chasing things and so When we really take time to ask the right questions to get the right answers. We're able to get results with clients that have never been able to get results in any other capacity because we're looking at the root cause, the underlying condition, and not just the constellation of symptoms. Michelle (16:07) For sure. And one of the things that I hear a lot is, you know, the unexplained infertility diagnosis. And I'm sure for you specifically, you're like, wait, because you look at it in so many different ways that you could probably pick up on things that the next OB will not be picking up on. Laurena White (16:12) Yes. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. Well, I unexplained infertility and we always like to say fertility challenges instead of infertility because that kind of borderlines on like you are sterile and I'm like, and it could be your ovaries. It could be your womb. It could be a lot of different things. So you're just having fertility challenges. And so when I look at unexplained, my thing is, OK, maybe it's unexplained under Western medicine guidelines. But when I look at things, I'm looking at OK. Michelle (16:33) I know I don't like the word, the I word either. Laurena White (16:51) Let's look at your period in all its four stages. Is it the follicular phase? Is it the luteal phase? Okay. Is it menstruation? Is it that second part of your follicular phase? Are you ovulating? And is your luteal phase short or long? And are you hot? Are you cold? Like all those different aspects. How healthy are they? So if I look at your cycle length and your cycle length is 21 days, you're probably not ovulating. And if you are ovulating, then your luteal phase is probably super short. And even if you had a perfect product of conception, there's no place to land. So now we're dealing with, is it your ovaries or is it eaters? So, and then, you know, the other end of the spectrum, if your cycle length is maybe, let's say 45 days, and we're talking still consistent 45 days, then you're probably not ovulating until more toward like day 28, day 30, something like that. But everyone's telling you, you ovulate around day 14. So you're having sex around day 14 and there's no egg there. you're not getting pregnant. So I think a lot of those things are just the easy things that we don't even, we take for granted. And then when there's irregularities, what is the irregularity and where is it coming from? And I am not an, I'll say it out loud, I'm not an advocate of birth control because it is a synthetic hormone and an endocrine disruptor. And when people are on birth control for years at a time, sometimes decades at a time, it messes up the whole entire menstrual cycle. not just the menstrual bleeding part, the menstruation part, but the actual day one to day one component. And so some of that work that we're doing is trying to get the cycle to some level of regularity where the person knows, okay, you're ovulating now because why you're looking at your cervical mucus. Some people don't even have any cervical mucus or know when and how to check it. And so those are things that we don't even have to argue about. If you're seeing cervical mucus, now we can time some things because you are ovulating. If you don't know how to look for those things, now it's my job to help you start ovulating. Or, wow, your cycle length is too short. Or your cycle length is too long. Or you have a blocked tube. All of these things we can work with, but it depends on what you already know about your cycle or don't know about your cycle. And I think unexplained infertility is one of those catch -all phrases because people don't take the time to do the proper examination. not just physically, but to ask the right questions. And sometimes simply asking the right questions, I find out, your cycles are too short or you're ovulating early, and day 10. And if you're ovulating at day 10, the egg isn't mature enough. Even again, if there's perfect sperm, it's not, you know, it's not gonna be fertilized well enough to implant. Sometimes it's, you know, the uterine lining is too thin because the luteal phase is too short. And then my favorite, sometimes it's not the woman. Sometimes it's her male partner who refuses to get checked, who refuses to go get a sperm analysis, who does or... Michelle (19:38) Right. my God. Yes. Totally. Yes. And then I've even heard some some REs not even asking about the husband. I'm like, what? that. It's so bad. It is. It's it's so horrible. Yeah. Laurena White (19:51) Which is criminal, yeah. To me, that's criminal. Yeah, it's worse than bad because now you have this woman jumping through all these hoops, getting pricked and prodded and poked and stabbed and all these things. And it's like, wait a minute, do we know what your partner's sperm analysis is? Has he had it? he knows his sperm as well. Based on what? Because he can ejaculate? Do you know the contents of Michelle (20:18) Right, exactly. Laurena White (20:20) Can you tell me? Can he tell me? Can you tell me what the semen concentration is? Can you tell me what the sperm count is? Can you tell me what the sperm shape is? Can you tell me what the mortality is? If he can tell me those four things every time he ejaculates, then we have no problem. The fact is he can't. And until you get an examination, none of us can. Somebody has to look at those things. And it could be, yes, he has great sperm count, but are they messed up from years let's say smoking or over a simple thing is he's a avid bike rider and that will aspect sperm. But there things that we can do even with men that are easier than the things that we do with men. They can take their herbal blend and in two months, boom, sperm count is healthy because men make sperm at a different. Yeah, it's just definitely simpler. So it's not as invasive. doesn't require as much. Definitely changing some habits and making some lifestyle changes. But I Michelle (20:49) Right. Exactly. Right? Totally. Yeah. It's more simple, for sure. Laurena White (21:18) that's my biggest pet peeve is that we are still not addressing male and female factor. And when they're both male and female factor issues, both of them need to be addressed. And a lot of times partners are just not willing to do that. And that can be diagnostic in terms of the healthiness of that relationship. Michelle (21:29) absolutely. Yes. And also, I mean, I love that you mentioned birth control because so many doctors will put people, including myself when I was younger, like on the birth control pill and be like, okay, when, when you're ready to get pregnant, you just get off and you just try. Right. It's just, no, it does not. Laurena White (21:44) Mm -hmm. No, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And I wish it would, then we wouldn't have as many of these problems. You could just stay on the birth control pill till you were ready and boom, as soon as you stop taking your pill, everything, but it doesn't work that way. It hijacks your body's endocrine system. And so just because you stopped taking it, it has been a threshold. And I say, if you were on it for six years, it's going to take a lot of intensive work to clear that actual synthetic hormone from your body and help your body realize what its endogenous hormones are supposed to be doing because they've been unemployed for the entire time that you're on birth control. Yeah. So it's just not that easy. that has not been, don't, people don't necessarily educate clients and their patients about that turnaround time. And they're misinformed. And unfortunately that misinformation leads to potentially some life, life changes and lifestyle changes that aren't taking place. Michelle (22:26) It's true. Yeah. Yeah, it hasn't been used. Laurena White (22:48) when they could and should be happening and unnecessary and undue harms when people are trying to conceive. Michelle (22:56) Yeah, for sure. So for people who are trying to conceive, what are some of the steps they should take with doctors? how should they find the right practitioner? like it's a game changer when you find the right practitioner. Laurena White (23:07) Yeah. Yeah, I think the first thing is being like, do some research, find out people who had some great relationships, but don't necessarily take that for, you know, the lock, sock and barrel because it could be, hey, this person liked them because they were in and out. They told them what to do, how to do it. And they just did it and they appreciated that. Some people want a little bit more handholding. They want to feel coddled. And I will say the IVF industry or know, ART as an industry is not about a lot of soft and mushy, cuddly aspect. They're a machine. They get people in so they can get people out and, you know, cycle after cycle. And if your provider is just like, OK, you had had an unsuccessful cycle and they're like, OK, we'll try again next month or we can start again next month. That's a red flag. Your body's not ready. Your body is not ready for another cycle. Michelle (24:00) my God, I'm so happy you're saying this. Thank you, Lauren. Honestly, that is so important. Laurena White (24:03) It just is not going to happen. Yes. Yes. And that's money. Your body is not ready. If you had, let's say you're you went through everything and in what's the month? be in August. August. was an unsuccessful, whether it be a transfer or retrieval. And they're like, OK, we'll try again in September. Your body is so not ready for that experience. And I believe the industry as a whole preys on women and their vulnerable vulnerability and their desperation. For some women, yes, they undergo five, six cycles and they're successful. I am under the guise that after three cycles, especially with no time in between, enough time for restoration and ability to recover, it's not gonna happen. And does it happen? Yes, absolutely all the time. But like, that's not a guarantee. A lot of people think, I'm gonna do IVF and I'm guaranteed a baby. The answer is you're not. And it costs a lot of money for IVF. So going back to that original question, what should you be doing? There's a thing called preconception care. How are you taking care of your body before you even start to try to get pregnant? Most people try to like, the moment they're trying, they're like, I'm gonna get healthy once I get pregnant. That is the worst time to start trying any new exercise routine, new dietary lifestyle change. That stuff happens before you get pregnant. That's the first thing. And then it's the interconception care. What are you doing if you're planning on getting pregnant again? What are you doing during that time? And really being able to do some of these things. Like a lot of people will come to me and they're like, I'm having my transfer today. Can I come in and get an acupuncture treatment or I'm having my transfer today? And I've never seen them before. And my thing is absolutely. But keep in mind, these things work better and best as preconception care. When you've been seeing your acupuncturist, you've been seeing your massage therapist, you've been seeing you know, sometimes you've been seeing your own mental health therapist before or leading up to trying to get pregnant. And not everybody has this luxury because they get pregnant by accident or it wasn't planned. But for those who are planning or even thinking about it, start working on yourself months ahead of time, at least three. And the older you are, probably six, because your body's doing different things. Your hormones are doing different things. And especially if your hormones or menstrual cycle is not regular or short or there's some other type of aberration, whether it's long, short, irregular, have fibroids, endometriosis, PCOS, all those things. you need a lot more, a lot more time ahead of time in order to make sure that you're prepared for pregnancy. So I think really being able to work with a physician or a provider who is not afraid to work with a traditional medicine provider or team, because again, We're doing a lot of the heavy lifting that they're not gonna do or they can't do or won't do because all they're gonna do is stick to a protocol. Your injections, it has to be on this day, this time, but the preparation for making sure that that goes well starts three to six months ahead of Michelle (27:14) Yes. Amen. Cause I do, I do get people come in like a week before their transfers and while yes, it's going to help. Anything's going to help. It's still not the same. I wish I had more time, you know, but you know, what, can you do? Okay. It's like the times pass. We're here now. Like, let's just do what we can. Laurena White (27:22) Yep. Right. Not. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, but that's how they've been educated. But that's how they've been educated. Well, acupuncture can work for transfer or retrieval. And so that's what they do. They find any acupuncturist on the corner or in their neighborhood or, you know, sometimes it's the acupuncturist in the facility that they, you know, they happen to be using for their, A or T or their IVF. And that's they do. Even if that person has no Michelle (27:43) Mm Yeah. Laurena White (27:58) direct specialization in gynecology and obstetrics issues associated with balancing the things that may be off because of IVF. And I think a lot of times we forget that IVF is still a synthetic process. Yes, it's getting into a place, but you're being pumped with hormones at a level that are ungodly in terms of what your body produces normally. They are synthetic. Michelle (28:15) Mm -hmm. Laurena White (28:24) And so that's when a lot of women start being sad and depressed and bloating and crampy and angry and mood swings and all these things and water retention. And they're like, I'm just trying to get pregnant. And your body turns into a completely different entity that you are not familiar with because you're undergoing a process that is not natural. That is not in, especially in terms of hormone production that you're getting in ways that your body was never designed to experience. And yes, it is a means to an end for some people, but there also needs to be a way to balance that so that while this aspect is happening, the Western medicine side has its place, but there also needs to be space created for the traditional medicine side that can balance some of those things while you're going forward toward accomplishing that goal of conception and healthy pregnancy. Michelle (29:15) Yeah, for sure. also having a little, you know, when you were talking about a breather for your body and just really like supporting the liver, supporting the detoxification of those excess hormones. And because then you allow your body to kind of come back to that homeostasis, it's really important to do that. Our bodies are just not machines. I mean, it's important to respect that the process of our bodies and really what they're going through. And I think that Laurena White (29:21) Yeah. Yes. Yep. Michelle (29:44) That is something that needs to be thought of for sure. And another thing that drives me crazy, we were talking about the I word, is geriatric pregnancy at 35 years old. I see an eye roll. I knew you were going to feel the same way. It's absolutely ridiculous. Laurena White (29:48) Wait. Yeah. Yes. Again, we have the finite, yes, we have a finite amount of eggs. That's not that we're not gonna, I'm not gonna even begin to argue about that. But first we need to realize that the egg quality, some of those things were influenced by our moms and our grandmas. So when you were born, some of your eggs are, it was your grandma and your mom's fault. Like that's just, you got what they gave you. But then at 35, yes, things do change a little bit, but it's not a cliff. You're not like dropping off a cliff. Michelle (30:15) Mm -hmm. Laurena White (30:30) and everything is dried up and the whole geriatric pregnancy nomenclature is like, how are we doing this? How are we doing this to women and why? And why are you scaring them into thinking that at 35, if it's not done, wrap it up? Because we've seen people, especially with acupuncture, they're in their 50s. They're still menstruating. And I think if you're still menstruating, there's an egg in there somewhere. Again, what the quality is, I don't know. Michelle (30:37) Just that word. It's like ridiculous. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. Laurena White (30:59) but there's an egg in there somewhere and are you ovulating? Not sure. But if you believe it and you know, we've done your AMH and we're looking at your FSH and hey, then, and so 52 has been my oldest client that has gotten using her own eggs. But yeah, and she had IVF too, but there were, you know, there were her own eggs and everything else, but we worked together because she needed the extra help that IVF was definitely not going to provide. And. through that process of nurturing her, building up her yin, building up her kidney function, all those things, things that they're not even beginning to talk about in Western medicine. It's like, you need an egg donor. Based on what? Because she's 50? That's not enough. That is not an answer. Your age is just not enough. And egg quality is a thing. Egg count is a thing. All those are definitely aspects that need to be taken into consideration, but everybody's not born the same. Michelle (31:29) Mm -hmm. Right. Yeah. Laurena White (31:54) So there's premature menopause where you're in your 40s or earlier than your 40s and yeah, you have no more eggs and you hit premature menopause. But that's also not always just because there's signs doesn't mean or symptoms doesn't mean that's the actual diagnosis. Said main client, she came in and they told us she was premature ovarian failure. and she was hitting early menopause and I looked at her I was like, your constitution, even when she came to the office, I like, just don't think so. Yeah, was like, I mean, maybe, but I mean, cause it does exist, but her pulses and everything were vibrant. She was strong. mean, just constitutionally, she did not look that way. And I said, let's give it three months. And in three months, not only was she pregnant, she's gotten pregnant again after that. Michelle (32:17) Mm I know you could see it. Mm -hmm. Mm I had the same thing. I had similar stories. It's crazy. Yeah. Laurena White (32:46) And so my thing, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, why give somebody a, you just told someone who's like, at that time she wasn't even early. She was maybe not even 40 yet. And they were like, yeah, you're premature ovarian failure. You're going to need an egg donor, all these things. I'm thinking, it just didn't resonate with me. And again, could have been 100 % wrong. But my thing is you just need to tweak the things that are in balance. Michelle (33:02) Mm Laurena White (33:11) And for her to have a baby and again, natural pregnancy, there was no IVF, there was no nothing. And in three months of working together, not only was she pregnant, we continue working together and she's pregnant again. And it's like, so how do you tell someone that? Yeah, you tell somebody that, but that messes with someone's psyche. Someone who's been planning and thinking, and now they think that they have received what I call a reproductive health death sentence. Michelle (33:16) Mm Yeah. Mm -hmm. Amazing. I love those stories. for sure. Laurena White (33:39) because not only are their dreams not gonna come true, now they have to reroute everything. And my thing is not only, is it not like, we got one. No, you've had two. And now she's like, I don't want another one. if, she's like, I know definitely working with you. If I don't want another one, I need to make sure my appointments are scheduled sporadically because she's like, you will get us pregnant. And so it's just one of those things like that frustrates me. the nomenclature that we use. Michelle (33:40) Mm -hmm. That is so funny. Well, it's the power of suggestion, right? I mean, you're looking to an authority figure and you're getting this diagnosis and you're like, okay, well, I guess that's my, that's what it is. That's my future. Laurena White (34:06) Yes, yes. Mm -hmm. Yep. That's what it is. Yeah. And it's, it's not only disempowering, but it's also setting someone else up to not believe in themselves, to not understand their bodies in a way that dispel that information or go and conjure. Cause if your doctor says it that, Hey, you're in premature ovarian failure. Why wouldn't you believe And unfortunately it takes someone like me, our team to be like, I don't know. It could be true, but something's not matching up. And I think so often we get to that place at around 35 where doctors are just quick to say, okay, well, you're going to definitely have to have IVF or you're definitely going to have to have this, or you're definitely going to have to have an egg donor because your body won't do X, Y, Z anymore based on what? yes. Your AMH is a little higher, but that means we just have to work a little harder or a little longer. Michelle (34:42) Right, exactly. Laurena White (35:10) to counteract those natural processes of life by helping your body remember what it can do. And that does mean making some lifestyle changes. Yeah, because your body still can do it. It's just saying, hey, it's a lot harder now. But also, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to make lifestyle changes? Stop eating some of the things that you've been eating. Stop going some of the places that you've been doing. Start getting some sleep that you haven't been doing or getting. You may need to have... Michelle (35:17) Ooh, I love that. I love that. Yes. Laurena White (35:39) you know, seven hours of sleep instead of trying to survive on four because you need that restoration for your body, for your cells, for your eggs, for your ovaries. So your body can do that work. You may need to eat different types of food, eat differently. And yeah, maybe you might need a massage or you might need something for stress relief or you might need some acupuncture and some herbal blood. You might need some of those things to help your body recalibrate. So it knows and remembers what it is capable of doing. But staying on that same path, you're right. It might be a dead end, but there's also a way to turn that around. And when we do those things, anything is possible. Michelle (36:17) just love that sentence that you help your body remember because it's true. Your body knows your body's so smart and intelligent. It was designed to self -heal. That's really at the core of Chinese medicine. Naturopathic medicine says it too. It's really knowing that even Western medicine, they call it homeostasis. We call it yin and yang balance. But ultimately you create that environment where your body comes back to itself. Laurena White (36:26) Yep. Yes. Mm -hmm. Right. Yes. Michelle (36:45) And that's the beauty is that we do have resilient bodies and we have that ability. think that that's just remembering and having that hope that just because it's not showing up that way now or expressing itself that way now doesn't mean it's never going to is just making those shifts. think a big hurdle is really changing habits. People love their habits. They love their routines. Laurena White (36:49) Yes. Michelle (37:07) Even if it's not the healthiest, you know, and sometimes even the husbands, like, to try to get them to stop drinking as much or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Laurena White (37:08) Alright. Yes. Or smoking or whatever, or bike riding, whatever, sitting in a sauna, you know, all those different things. Yes, they provide a benefit, but they're not providing the benefit that you need right now. And all of us have habits and all of those habits address some need that we have. Otherwise, they wouldn't be habits, the good ones and the bad ones. We all have vices and yeah, something sometimes they're vices that Michelle (37:25) Yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah, it's true. Laurena White (37:40) air -quilt healthy vices, but sometimes they're vices that we know aren't good for us, but it feeds some type of initial need. But when it's time to do this type of work, which is the growing of a baby, the creation of a baby, we've got to make those shifts because now baby is requiring more of us than we require of ourselves. And I think that's the bottom line is that baby's going to get theirs first. And if you're not ready to create space for that baby to have a healthy environment, Michelle (37:59) Yes. Laurena White (38:07) maybe that's not your priority. And I think that's a lot of times when things aren't necessarily happening, it's that wake up call like, I need to take the step back. And some of these things that are self -serving now need that energy needs to go toward serving the baby in terms of not as growth and development, not just in utero, but preconception wise. And I think when people make those shifts, that's their first step in motherhood is doing something in service to unborn baby, even preconception wise. And when they make that shift, it's like, it starts to, this is motherhood. You know, this is that service to something bigger, bigger than me, which is that pregnancy. And not just for that nine months, but before babies even conceived. Michelle (38:54) Yeah, no doubt. Amazing. mean, I can talk to you for hours. just, I love the fact that you have, yeah, you have such a beautiful perspective and you really look at like every aspect and kind of like the core of a person, spirit wise, mental wise, physical wise, like in all different ways. And I think it's really cool to have the vantage point that you have of Laurena White (38:58) Of course, I know I love talking to you. Michelle (39:21) both worlds. I do believe that the two need to work together because there's benefits from every perspective. For people who want to find out more, you have an amazing podcast. So if they want to learn from you or if they might live close to you and can actually see you in person, how can people find Laurena White (39:24) Absolutely. Thank you. Go to our website, larenawhite .com. That's my first and last name. And we do telehealth visits, so you don't even have to be in the DC metro area. We have a network of providers all around the country. So even if it's not us and maybe you're working with us in some virtual component or remote component, and we'll connect you with a provider in your area who does the work that we do, that we believe in, that we trust, and we coordinate care. So it won't necessarily Michelle (40:06) Love that. Laurena White (40:07) disjointed, we definitely talk about, you know, all the different aspects that we just talked about here, just so we're all on the same page and, you know, really working together with you. Because for me, it's more important that our clients receive what they need, even if it's not with us. And I'm not too proud to say like, hey, maybe somebody else can do this better or differently. And maybe I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but I do want everyone to get the things that they need. Again, the podcast is also on our website and I'll make sure that, you know, the link goes in the show notes as well. And yeah, the ability to work with us, I teach, so I always have courses online as well for providers and clients alike. Sometimes providers want to get information because we do have, we address complex women's health. Yes, yeah, and Michelle (40:53) True. And we do have a lot of providers listening to this podcast, by the way. Laurena White (40:58) Because we, again, I have my own set of mentors who I feel like they have gotten, you know, I go to, I study, I love what I do. And I feel the only way to get better is continuing to do the thing that I do well better. Because if I can get great results in three months, what if I could get those same results in two and a half? Again, those two weeks mean something. And so really being able to not only open up my network of other providers who, Michelle (41:12) Yes. Laurena White (41:25) not necessarily are like me because there are not many, but if I can find an acupuncturist in your city or state who works with, know, Western Mediterranean providers who are open to that partnership, that's gold. That is gold. I find that it's, it's this challenging. Sometimes people don't, we'll work with everybody because I don't have any shame and I definitely have confidence in my own skill set and I will work with anyone. Michelle (41:40) Yes, it is gold. Laurena White (41:53) at the behest of what's best for our clients. And a lot of times other providers, because I do use traditional medicine for a lot, they think it's, I guess, threatening their practice or what they're, know, and in the bigger scheme of things, if we're helping our mutual client get their needs met, who cares who gets the credit? The point is, like, it's just, to me, it's one of those wasted energy aspects because Michelle (42:12) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Laurena White (42:21) We're not working for our own reputations. We're working for the benefit of the client. And if we're working together, we all win. And so that is my, that has been my, it's because it just, I don't know, to me it's all common sense, but I realized the longer I do this, common sense is just not that common. And there, we're still like, know, you know, egos and all the different other ills of the world. Michelle (42:28) I love that. This is why I love you. Laurena White (42:45) And that's the one thing I, you know, is just continue to doing the things and the work that I know works. And again, if you go to the website and the email, you'll be able to find us anywhere. And if we can't help you, then we'll know someone who can. Michelle (42:57) thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. And it was really important for me, for the listeners to hear really what you can get from a care provider and what you should be getting from a healthcare provider. So thank you so much for coming on today. Laurena White (43:15) And thank you for allowing me to be your guest. I appreciate it. You know, I love talking to you as well.