126: A conversation with Christina Brooks, Founder, CEO Ruebik. inclusion first talent attraction agency

The Elephant in the Room

Show Notes:

There are some brilliant leaders doing amazing work to promote equity & inclusion in the UK. Would you agree? There are not enough superlatives to describe the hard work and commitment of these advocates.

Christina Brooks, Founder and CEO Ruebik is one such leader. Along with her day job she is a trustee for an alternative provision school in Tottenham, a Trustee for pioneering Social Communications Centre for Autism. She also mentors incarcerated young people and advises many black owned social startups.

So, I was thrilled to have @Christina Brooks as a guest on the 126th episode of The 🐘in the Room podcast to talk about all things equity and inclusion. In this freewheeling conversation we spoke about her journey from global talent lead at Rolls Royce to starting Ruebik an inclusion first talent attraction agency and DEI consultancy. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 Learnings from the corporate world that she brought to her entrepreneurial journey

👉🏾 Being purpose led, and B-Corp certified

👉🏾 Lived experiences, and her intersectional identities that led to her being othered

👉🏾 Her thoughts on Industry trends indicating a slowdown and step back in investment and commitment of DEIB/EDIB initiatives

👉🏾 How culture and measurement contribute to creating an impactful recruitment and hiring process

👉🏾 Conscious/Inclusive leadership

👉🏾 Future of work – the impact of AI

We also spoke about her podcast Elevated Conversations with Tacita Small and Monique Carayol, Zoom Fenty, even Beyonce, her beliefs, motivations and having a long view of change………..

To learn more head to the podcast (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Christina. It's such a pleasure to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Christina: It's an absolute honour to be here Sudha. Thank you for the invitation.

Sudha: Brilliant. let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do. Also, tell us why did you decide to become an entrepreneur?

Christina: Yeah, a really good question. Why did I decide to become an entrepreneur because it was not by design, I actually fell into it. So, if I give you a little bit about my background, I've got almost 20 years executive search experience. So that's really my bread and butter. So really thinking about how organisations should attract and retain exec leaders.

And prior to setting up Ruebik, I worked for Rolls Royce as a global talent acquisition lead. So, my team were in Derby, and I was based down here in London, and it was a really wonderful experience. And my mandate at the time was to increase gender representation, and we started to look at other underrepresented strands as well. But I think the real light bulb moment for me, Sudha, was when I was often looking for suppliers and other executive recruitment firms to help us really think about diversity.

They often sounded and looked like the business that we were trying to change and innovate in. And so really for me, I built the kind of business that I wanted to work with. So Ruebik, as it stands, it's an extension of a talent acquisition function. And so, we really partner closely with organisations who are trying to move the dial beyond gender. We're looking at race, we're looking at social mobility, we're looking at, fringe communities that typically sit on the periphery. And so that's what we do day in and day out.

Sudha: Wow, that's amazing. I think nothing better than a purpose led business because that's what you are. What were the learnings you brought from your corporate experience that have helped you navigate this journey to building a B Corp certified talent agency?

You are B Corp certified, congratulations.

Christina: Yeah, I'm happy to display it in the back.

Sudha: How important was it to have focus and purpose when you were setting this up?

Christina: It was intrinsically linked. It was never an afterthought and so when people say when did you decide to go to B Corp? B Corp came to me in a strange way.

Because of how I had built and set up the business I was introduced to a fantastic organisation called Cyd Connects. And it's run by two incredibly powerful women, and they take organisations through the B Corp process. So, if you ever need help and support with this, CydConnects, and I'd be happy to connect.

When I met with the co-founders and I explained how Ruebik was built, that we look at the ecosystem. As much as I'm passionate about changing executive diverse leadership within organisations, so really those decision making roles, I also look at fringe communities as I've already referenced.

I'm a trustee at a pupil referral unit, we are the academy that one, young children have already been expelled from school and it's typically because they have emotional, behavioural, psychological challenges that don't fit into that neurotypical peg. They come to our academy, and beyond that, we then, as a business, go into prisons and work with young men who are currently incarcerated.

I've been to Thameside, I've been to Pentonville, I've been to Brixton Prison and we work with the young men there to help reframe some of the activities, that really made them successful in an illegal way. How can we transfer that into a legal sustainable work that would help empower them and their families.

Because of this ecosystem that I've built that looks not only at executive leaders but wider society and community, it just felt right to have that B Corp certification and status to share with our clients, share with our candidates that this is something that is part of our DNA as a business.

Sudha: You haven't taken the easy path, because there are lots of people who've jumped onto the bandwagon post-COVID or pre-COVID because they saw an opportunity, a business opportunity.

Clearly you are deeply embedded in trying to bring about change as you said in communities that are at the periphery and are not likely to find as much support.

Christina: That's right.

It's so important for me, Sudha, because I often describe myself as the product of the problem that we're trying to solve. I left school at 15. I didn't do A levels. I did not go on to university at that time. I was brought up in a single parent family. My mom had four kids and in an incredibly religious environment. What that means, I was actually raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, so what that means to me is that I have a deep understanding and respect for other people's faith.

And while it is no longer my faith, but if you think of all of the complexities of also growing up outside of London, it was in Gloucester, it just meant that I was different in so many different ways. I was othered because of the colour of my skin, othered because our dad didn't live at home with us in that traditional family setting, othered because I was a Jehovah's Witness, there were so many things that made me so different.

And then it was a bit of an awakening to move from Gloucester to Tottenham, which is a very deprived inner city borough of London that for anybody who doesn't know it, but it's where the riots took place in 2011 when Mark Duggan was shot and killed by the police. That, that was literally the bottom of my high road.

And I just have a different perspective in terms of people growing up in lots of different social communities and what access allows and what the lack of access excludes you from. And I think that this is where this fight comes from is really understanding how very quickly and easily you can be excluded.

When I would go to job interviews, the minute I said I lived in Tottenham, no callbacks, I would never get a callback. So, I started creeping up the Victoria line. And I was like, I live in Finsbury Park, maybe we'll call you back. I live in Highbury and Islington. And then it was the callbacks because I had to be savvy. I didn't want to lie about where I lived and I wasn't ashamed. It just meant that people perceived me differently when I said, I come from Tottenham.

Sudha: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not what we're doing, it's how others are willing to engage with you because of the differences. Post COVID, you know, DEI gained a lot of traction and momentum, but research in the past couple of years has shown that the efforts are now stalling.

And I have two questions here, do you agree or disagree with the research findings? And if you agree, what are the reasons for this progress stalling?

Christina: I think that's a big question. In 2020, there was a groundswell that nobody could ignore. Up until that point in the UK, there were a handful of things that it was impolite to talk about.

You were actively dissuaded from having conversations about politics, religion, money, and race. They're your four things, you wouldn't talk about it around the dinner table or with friends because it's like come on, we're British, be conservative, polite. In America, the conversation was so much more advanced because slavery happened on their land, they could see it there.

Here in the UK, it's always been so removed, and we called it business.

Sudha: Yeah.

Christina: So for that reason, conversations about equal opportunities, diversity and inclusion, now it's called ED& I, now E D I and Belonging. It changes its name, we have new acronyms, but the conversation stays the same. We would have to really have a radical shift in our community and in society to see the change that is needed, because there is something inherent in all of our communities, that it feels like we give away something when we are bringing somebody in.

And that's just a tribal feel, and it's something inherently biological, that if you saw something that looked different to you, that sounded different to you, it was a threat to your tribe. That is how we are built for survival. And so that seeps into organisation, it seeps into culture, it seeps into us being able to other, communities and people that are different to us because it's our reptilian mind, we do it without thinking. Of course it slowed down after 2020 because at that groundswell, at that time, I think that it was the first time in history that the entire world had a common enemy outside of itself, so we were all scared of COVID. We all looked at each other, and it didn't matter how much money you made, it didn't matter if you're a celebrity, if you're homeless and on the street, we all had a single enemy.

And in that moment, we all saw the humanity in each other. When you see somebody's life taken away by an institution, the police, you are stopped in your tracks. And we were already traumatized by what was happening. It really catalysed the conversation and shifted people into action. And of course, that has slowed down because the world got back up on its feet. There is less empathy now than there was four years ago, it was four years ago now. And we've gone back to old ways of working. So, I do agree with the research, which does make me sad.

Sudha: And does politics also have something to contribute to it? Because we saw the last government, take some steps or, even say that there were no problems with diversity or bias is not something that they wanted to include in training. I think the political class does have some contribution to make to this entire stalling business.

Christina: Of course, I think that it's the cascade down and we see it. If I think about our counterparts in the U S as I say, this is a conversation that has been alive for them for hundreds of years because of what took place on their soil, for us, it's relatively newer.

I think post Windrush and how we saw a lot of communities treated thereafter, both Black, Asian, all the other communities that have happened 60s onwards we see real cultural weaponisation around this subject matter from governments. Both across the sea in the US and here in our own backyard.

And I feel like what the political climate is, is if people look like us and sound like us and say, actually immigration is not the way to go or there's not a problem here, nothing to see here, it's really dangerous. It's a dangerous rhetoric, and damaging because it's from our people.

Sudha: Absolutely agree with you. Moving on from there, your clients, for example, are they asking for your expertise in building inclusive recruitment and more inclusive hiring processes? Or are they just interested in getting past the hiring requirements, whatever is the most immediate need?

Christina: Yeah. Sudha, that's a really brilliant question because I do think that there are a lot of organisations out there who are very metric driven and just want to tick those boxes and say, look, we've done it, we've got the percentage of women, black, disability and great is this is our scorecard.

Luckily, as a founder of my own business, it means that I'm willing to back myself and leave money on the table. If I do not think that organisation is doing it for the greater good of community and customer, that's what this has to be about. It has to be inclusive for all, not because you've got metrics to hit.

A number of our organisations and clients that we work with, are really trying to do things in a different way, and if we even just take one facet of the whole employee life cycle, which is a recruitment piece, the attraction, we have not disrupted the way that interviews are conducted for the past 40 years.

It's the same. It's insane. And we're working in an environment where there are four different generations. One client that I have has employees at 16 years old all the way up to 82. Imagine! If you think about the intergenerational context of that, and what people are demanding now from organisations, then we were, say, two, four, five years ago, it's completely different. So inclusive recruitment has to be a central part of how to engage different communities in a way that you have never done before.

Sudha: That's so true. we hear so much statistics about, the different generations in the workplace for the first time, and a lot of organisations are ill-prepared to communicate and engage with them.

How important, Christina, is measurement for keeping track of an organisation's DEI Priorities, when your clients, do they talk about measuring, the impact? And are there, two or three steps to get started on the journey?

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that, where I spoke to clients previously who were just looking at metrics, there is absolutely a need, because what isn't measured isn't done. We do need the data, of course we need the data, but it can't be the be all and end all of this conversation. And I think that's where some people get stuck with data paralysis.

It's like, well, we know, and this is the amount of people that we need to increase by it's like, but what's the thing feeling of your organisation? What is the culture saying? And the best definition I've heard of culture is the worst behaviours tolerated in an organisation. That is your culture.

So how is that being measured?

And to your point, what are the steps that you take to get a better understanding of that, it's deep listening. It has to be objective. Of course, there is some merit and benefit to bold surveys and internal, kind of, you know, let's take a sweep and let's ask. But there will always be that inherent bias or fear that actually your boss might see it or you might be identifiable because you've really spoken up and shared your honest thoughts, but somehow HR might map it back to you.

So my advice is, even if it's not through a Ruebik, but find a partner that you truly trust and get that external objective feedback loop. And that's the first point, is listening to the business, listening to your organisation, because quickly after that, you can then map a pathway to making things better to organisational tweaks. But deep listening is number one.

Sudha: Yeah, I guess unless you listen, you'll never know the behaviours that need to change. Like you said, what is the worst behaviour that an organisation is willing to tolerate? That's an amazing definition.

Moving on, across the world, a large percentage of leaders are technocrats, you know, higher education, MBAs, they do not teach about DEI, you know, so unless leaders have a personal interest, they are not going to make, culture a priority for them.

What can be done to help these leaders unlearn behaviours and be more conscious and inclusive? Because I don't think there is an option for them now to not understand this entire landscape.

Christina: I think that this is one of the most underrated and undervalued points that we are trying to ratify right now across industry.

That question that you've asked right there should be the question of every CEO running an organisation right now in the market, is how do I get my leaders to understand how important this is. Up until this point, if we think about historically, how you hire, how you promote, how you retain, it's all been based on exclusion.

And it's all been based on the network and the network that you foster, which doesn't exclude, that doesn't include others. And you've been rewarded for that kind of behaviour. The whole thing has flipped on its head. Unless we're asking these much bigger questions, like how can we be consciously...